Christina Chan Judges You By Your Asian Slaw
(This interview was transcribed and edited)
What’s your name, what do you do? And when people ask you where you’re really from, how do you answer that question?
My name is Christina Chan. I am the farmer and owner of Choy Division, which is a small diversified vegetable farm that grows East Asian vegetables using organic practices. When people ask me where I’m really from I always say New York. And then they're always like, “but where are you really from?”. Before, when I was younger, I would just kind of answer, and you don’t think about it. Now I’m a little bit more aggressive - especially if I’ve had a few drinks, which is often when people are trying to hit on you! Once I was like, “do you mean where THIS is from?” [Christina gestures wildly around her face in a movement that some people will be familiar with!]. That made somebody very uncomfortable, which was very exciting for me.
So do you tend to get that question in a sexualized way? Who asks you that question - is it always non-Asians?
For the most part, almost nine times out of 10. Because I think when an Asian person asks me, by that time we’ve established a relationship or friendship - then they’ll be like ‘Oh, so what kind of Asian are you?’, whereas with everybody else it will be one of the first things they ask me. This is the biggest difference.
But yeah, usually I try not to answer it right away. I try to make them really work for it and make them say what they’re really trying to ask me for [laughs].
So why did you start farming?
I started farming while I was living in London, because I had finished doing a master’s degree and I was like, ‘wow, I do not want to be in academia. I started volunteering on an urban farm [Stepney City Farm] and it was super amazing, and led me onto this longer path.
With Asian vegetables, specifically, I felt like I grew up going to farmers’ markets for fun on the weekends and yet I never saw any Asian vegetables there. I started to wonder, ‘Why aren’t there more Asian vegetables there?’. We as a culture eat so many fresh vegetables - it’s such a cornerstone of our diet - so to not see that reflected back in a city where there is a huge Asian population was a big question mark for me.
I wanted to grow organic food that I wanted to eat, but also vegetables that would be recognisable to my grandmother. And I assumed there were other people like me out there who don’t want to sacrifice their environmental values in order to be true to their heritage.
So you’re farming in New York City or the state?
I’m no longer in New York City. I’m an hour and a half outside, in the state.
What was the process of setting up the farm and choosing your vegetables like?
The biggest challenge for me was finding the knowledge of how to grow all the Asian vegetables. As you might imagine, there aren’t a lot of English language resources that exist, that teach you how to grow gai lan or something, so I had to figure it out myself. I had to adapt what already existed for a Western counterpart, like broccolini.
Next, I’m gonna complain about this because I think you’ll understand one of my biggest gripes! When I was ordering the seeds from a seed catalogue, luckily there is one seed company that used to be Japanese owned. They have a huge variety of different types of Asian vegetable seeds, which is great. But if you flipped through some of the other popular seed catalogues, they would have a section called ‘Asian Greens’, which would just really not have anything to do with each other.
Clearly it was just easier for these people to categorise them in this way. I hate this! Because either they’re not from the same place, and you wouldn’t eat them the same way, or you wouldn’t even classify them together botanically. They’re not all the same type of plant families so… why are they all here?
So that was one of the biggest things that I was always up against. I think it’s starting to change a little bit because people are realising it’s not great to lump them all in together. It’s a reflection of how you lump all of US together under one label and take no opportunity to understand how we’re actually really different. It always rubbed me the wrong way!
It’s like if you had a menu section and then you just put noodles and dessert and char siu bao in one section just because it’s all Asian… In the same way that you might not think to put an Asian brassica with other brassicas…
Yes, and you have to assume it’s because the people who are browsing are just wanting to add ‘novelty’ to their farm or something.
But back to starting the farm. In 2020 I decided to move up to Hudson Valley to take a farm apprenticeship with a Chinese farmer. That was one of the reasons I took it, because I wanted to work with another Asian farmer. And then Covid hit. He wasn’t sure if his farm was going to keep operating, and when I asked if I could start growing on my own he said, that’s fine.
Eventually the other farm started back up, and it was this gentle launching pad in many ways because this farmer gave me the opportunity to use a lot of their resources without having to pay for them. I had access to land, infrastructure and equipment - those are all major, expensive investment barriers to young farmers.
The farm has expanded over time, it’s now becoming more complicated because I’ve had to hire more people. It’s easier in some ways because I’ve built momentum but there’s also more demands on my time to take care of everything, which is something I’m sure you understand. As you connect with more people, it becomes like a bigger part of the job.
So in many ways the farm started out with me growing stuff, but now I’m also growing a community, making space for others. This year we’re hosting an apprenticeship to train new farmers, because there’s a lot of young Asian and BIPOC people who are interested but there’s no safe space for them to go.
I get it. That unrewarded, unpaid labour in the community space that goes unnoticed or is expected as part of your job.
Yes. I’m happy to do it; it’s a huge part of why I’m doing the work, but sometimes it’s really tiring and you feel bad that you can’t answer every email. There are multiple college students emailing me for help with this project or that project - unfortunately I can’t spare six hours to help you with projects that will never see the light of day again! I’m sorry [laughs].
I’ve spent at least three hours this month being interviewed for people’s PhDs! I’m like, that’s great but I also need to get paid.
What kind of vegetables are you growing right now in the farm?
We run a CSA so we grow a huge variety. A choy, celtuce, eggplants, Thai eggplant, Thai bird’s eye chillies, Korean drying chilli for gochugaru, a yellow Vietnamese cayenne pepper, a green Chinese chilli that I don’t know the name of, but one of my mentors gave me the seeds from China, baby bok choy, Shanghai bok choy, gai lan, choy sum, Napa cabbage, flat cabbage, mustard green, head mustard, leaf mustard, long turnips, green meat radish, Korean chonggak radish, mini daikon radish, garlic scallions…
Are you finding a diverse Asian customer base?
I haven’t really had a chance to connect with individuals as much as I would like, because we do remote drop offs. So I can only guess based on last name, things like that. From what I know it’s a decent spread. I think it’s still predominantly Chinese and Vietnamese, with some Korean, Japanese, South Asian and Filipino people as well.
With people outside the Asian diaspora I’m a little wary as a business. You can’t tell somebody ‘You can’t buy my stuff’, but I try to make it clear that if you are looking for a novelty experience, this isn’t it. Because there’s no entry level information.
Napa cabbage is my favourite example - I’m not gonna tell you what to do with an epic cabbage like this!
Have you found that non-Asians need that kind of education and hand holding?
For the most part, the people have signed up because they have a connection [to the culture]. But I remember seeing someone making lots of [the same] soups. If you’re making the same thing all the time with this variety of vegetables, you’re not trying to understand each vegetable on its own and the culinary powers that it can bring to your table.
You talked about fresh vegetables being the cornerstone of your diet. What’s your relationship to Asian vegetables been like? Do you think it’s part of your identity, almost?
Growing up, I lived with my mom, my aunt and my grandparents. Every night we’d always have at least one leafy green and another kind of vegetable, whereas meat was more limited. Then when I was living on my own, I did a very bad job of doing that. Part of this was reflecting on that long period of not really eating Asian vegetables, or that much Asian food, because I was living with somebody who was not Asian.
I realised - oh, I really miss it. I hated that this was not a part of my life, with this person I was seeing. I didn’t want that to be my future. So now it’s more blended, and I make a concerted effort to include Asian veg in my diet - but when you’re growing up in a mixed society with access to so many different things, it’s not always what you want or crave.
But definitely - fresh vegetables over canned or frozen. And I’m now starting to see a new appreciation for dried vegetables. Farming taught me so much about the history of Asian cuisine. I didn’t know that dried bok choy or radish tops was a thing! I think it’s popular with older people because it was a way of preserving food, with lots of texture and flavour. It’s a fascinating world to me that I didn’t know existed - especially because we have so much access to fresh food now.
What I love is it’s not just about the preservation method - dried vegetables enhance dishes with flavour and texture!
So what were your favourite vegetable dishes when you were growing up?
My Grandpa used to stuff green bell peppers with fish paste - my family speak a mixture of Cantonese and Shanghainese so I’m struggling to find the word - then fry it. That was really delicious [yong tau foo]. My favourite vegetable dish ever, which we usually got at a restaurant, was dau miu in oyster sauce, which is so amazing and delicious.
It’s the best, but so expensive!
Same here. It’s very labour intensive to pick. I’m still trying to crack the vegetable - it’s one where there’s no information. White people grow pea shoots all the time, but they’re very thin, they’re not as juicy and sweet. Dau miu is totally different.
What are your favourite ways to cook vegetables?
Last year I made suancai (酸菜) - my goal is to make one big batch every year and it’s something I always look forward to. I love growing the head mustard - she’s so beautiful and big and dramatic looking. It just feels lovely to have like a little bit of preserved greens throughout the winter months.
I also finally figured out how to grow a gai lan the way I like it. I just steam it with oyster sauce, and you don’t need anything else. That’s the beauty of a lot of Chinese vegetables - you cook them very simply, it’s more about highlighting the texture and flavour.
I also like to have dried scallops with baby bok choy.
Christina’s Sour Mustard Greens recipe
It’s basically like sauerkraut. I take mustard greens, wilt them in the sun for a couple of days, and then measure out 2-4% salt by weight.
I crush it all together as much as possible, let some of the liquid seep out, cram it into a jar, add water if I need to and let it sit for a really long time. I like it more sour, so I let it go for almost a month.
Who would you invite to eat your suan cai? And how should it be eaten?
All my fellow farmers, especially any of them that also do their own preservation and fermentation. Suancai is still so foreign to the western palate, but anyone that appreciates fermentation will love the funk and the tang that only suancai has. I would either stir fry it with pork and rice cakes, pair it with edamame and pressed tofu, or go classic Taiwanese style and have it with a bowl of rice, fried pork chop and jammy soy sauce egg.
So what are your thoughts on Asian slaw?
[Laughs] I think it's total b*******. Anytime I see Asian slaw on a bistro menu or an Applebees type place or fast casual dining place, it just means they put soy sauce on it.
Does it annoy you?
I heavily judge the place and assume that all of their food is not good, probably just picking the most in-your-face, obvious ingredient to associate with your culture.
So, I don’t order it for the most part.
It’s interesting how even the way something is named can really put you off an establishment.
Absolutely. If I’m going to want to eat something that has Asian flavours, it’s definitely not gonna be that.
What do you think of this label Asian? ‘Asian American’ is a relatively recent invention, and then it became AAPI… it’s constantly changing and people are always finding flaws in labels.
It’s definitely something I still struggle with. I still say I’m Asian. I’ve heard AAPI is problematic because Pacific Islanders don’t necessarily want to be roped into our nonsense. They’re not wrong! But sometimes AAPI is easier. It is easier to type because it’s only four letters. ‘Asian American’ feels like you have to say American to prove your value.
No label is truly satisfactory, and Asian is so broad, but it’s not inaccurate, I suppose, and it’s fine when you’re using it amongst yourselves. When you feel like you’re being categorised for no reason, then it becomes a problem.
What was your experience of being Asian American in London?
It was nice! It was quite refreshing as people addressed me as American first. I came to London to do a Masters program and it was me, two other Americans and everyone else was English. There were some other international students but for the most part they would just make fun of me for being American.
And that was nice in some ways, that for the first time that was the focal point of my identity - not even the fact that I was Chinese. They were more likely to make fun of me for the way I said ‘tuna’ or something.
So interesting - that experience of being ‘Other’, but in other places.
Let’s loop back to the taxonomy of ‘Asian Greens’. I hosted a panel chat last year where we started talking about the exoticisation of certain ‘Oriental’ vegetables, and how there’s a hierarchy of Asian veg where Japanese veg are more glamorous because Japanese culture is elevated above Chinese and other Asians.
100%. We don’t have much access to Japanese vegetables on the East Coast because there’s a smaller Japanese population, which really only adds to their appeal. People are used to going to the wet markets in Chinatown and getting really cheap produce, but there’s only three Japanese markets so it always has that premium on it. Culturally there’s always been that idea that Japanese is the best. Or it’s even about the way they’ve packaged it.
It’s also interesting when you look at fusion menus or modern European menus, the way they elevate the food is to add a bit of Japanese leaf. It’s never a Chinese vegetable.
Have you read Trevor Noah’s Born a Crime? His memoir about growing up in South Africa?
Yes!
At one point he talks about how Japanese people were considered white and the Chinese people were considered to be black. I was like, ‘even in Africa we can’t catch a break!’
That’s so brilliant. He’s funny.
So how do we address this disparity in the way we talk about vegetables?
I think we have to show people that there are so many facets to Chinese food. At least now, people are referring to Chinese food by region, which is a huge step in the right direction, but people are still expecting it to be inexpensive. I don’t know what to do about it other than go out to restaurants and support them.
Through the farm, I think it’s about showing that Asian vegetables are worthy of being grown organically; worthy of a higher price tag, so exploring the history of each vegetable and how much it means to different people is part of that - it’s not just a nameless green filler or nutrition vehicle.
Are you supplying to any chefs or restaurants?
A couple of small restaurants: Porcelain and Insa. I’d like to expand more in the coming year.
Back to Sichuan - I have my own theory about why it’s so popular. How about you?
I guess the sudden interest in spicy food helps, because we were a very bland country for a long time, all of a sudden we realised spice is a thing that we enjoy. That’s my best guess. Fuchsia Dunlop has been on the scene for so long, so it’s not like she’s the one who’s ushered it in. Certainly her translation work helps - she gave me access to a whole world that I wouldn’t otherwise have so I am eternally grateful to her.
She’s a model of how a white person can use their privilege to do something good.
My theory is well firstly this is - well - firstly let me caveat by acknowledging this misconception that all Sichuan food is spicy. It’s not. But I think it has so much to do with masculinity and the desire to eat spicy food.
I’m curious! But you are right that everyone does think Sichuan food is spicy all the time, which is just not true.
What’s it like growing cabbages?
Cabbage is the best vegetable! Wait, did you know that there’s two giant statues dedicated to Napa cabbage in China?
No, I didn’t!
So Napa, from a growing standpoint, is really easy to grow in the soil that I have because it’s very nutrient rich. It grows amazingly in the fall; I just love watching it grow from this tiny seed, and once it starts growing it rapidly doubles. It looks like a giant flower and then the head starts to close. It’s amazing to watch that whole process, and see how we as a people have bred a plant to do that.
Every year we like to see how big we can grow it. Last year, mine topped out at 9.5lbs for on!
Cabbage is also hardy, frost tolerant and keeps well in storage. But from a culinary standpoint, you can do literally everything with it: pickling, making kimchi, noodles, soup. Soup is so good - I love when it gets really soft and melts in there. Oh my god. Or just, stir fry it with fish cakes and have it with rice. It’s so versatile. Everybody has a soft spot for cabbage.
In Asian culture it feels special because here, in the States, it’s highly undervalued - like an ‘eat it if you have to’ kind of thing.
On an American menu coleslaw is the predominant way that people use it, and it makes me sad because there’s so much potential. And I know in Eastern Europe people also love their cabbage.
That goes back to learning how to cook things and get the most out of them, right? As opposed to thinking ‘oh, I’m not going to bother with that useless bit of cabbage.’
I wonder how much of it is that it’s poor people food, and the US has a long history eating prime cuts of meat and because it’s been wealthy for a long time. So, why would we eat the storage vegetable?
It’s like the opposite of the American Dream.
Exactly.
Well, we’ll take the cabbage!
Can we go back to cabbage breeding - what did you mean about how the Napa was bred?
All brassicas came from this one wild brassica, but they’ve been bred to do different things. Broccoli is bred to form flower buds, whereas cabbages are bred to form a big, weird leaf head. It’s amazing to think that they’re all related, and through time and selection they’re designed to look and taste different. At the heart of it, they’ve all got a common ancestor, which is mindblowing to me.
Has Choy Division been part of your identity journey?
I think the farm has been, selfishly, one big long identity journey for me. I feel totally different from who I was when I started the farm. I feel more comfortable with who I am, and there’s a willingness to explore things that I may have been ashamed of when I was younger, or assigned no value to it. Now I want to know more about my family history, why we eat what we eat and how I’m connected to everybody else. The most important thing is that I no longer feel ashamed and I feel a sense of pride to be Chinese. That’s more than I could have asked for.
The biggest part of that is finding a whole new community of people that I would not have known without farming; other Asian farmers who are going through the same type of internal work - but also this external work of making the world better, elevating our place in society. I’m just so grateful to have those people in my life.
Are your family supportive? What do they think?
At the beginning it was very hard for my mom to really support it, because it’s difficult, physical work and not financially viable for the most part. It’s fair. But as I’ve stuck with it and had more public facing success, she feels better about it. I don’t get as much pushback. I do think she still wishes that I chose an easier life for myself, because most parents want that for their children!
Have you ever had a memorable Asian slaw?
My only experience was when I was apprenticing early on with a white farmer. He grew a lot of Napa, and they made their slaw with Napa, crushed ramen noodles and the seasoning packet.
That actually sounds good…
It wasn't bad. But it’s not something I would eat all the time because we probably shouldn’t be eating a whole ramen seasoning packet on a regular basis! It’s a very generic American recipe, because it uses all the pantry staples.
It’s like a few years ago when some of the East London wine bars were adding Doritos dust on everything. I’m going to make that slaw! Watch this space!